Democracy/Log

From Intelligent Designs

The full log is at: http://scireview.de/dem/channel.log

This conversation happened after the chat was officially over, so the logbot was turned off. Here's a log.

<wybo> logilogi is a platform for discussion and sharing knowledge. I've been thinking, and partially working for some time now on a new version (LogiLogi Algae)

<wybo> that is supposed to support peergroups, locking while still allowing rating and link-adding, and the like...

<echarp> and of course parlement could be something like webParliament, although it doesn't take the same architectural outlook

<wybo> I can't read much of demexp, cause it's French...

<echarp> I know, very much a french centric, a Rennes centric in fact (Rennes is a city), project

<wybo> Found English already, srry

<echarp> :)

<echarp> it's ocaml, very much back end centred

<jeffarch> where are you based, wybo ?

<wybo> Netherlands

<jeffarch> ah, cool

<wybo> (Groningen, Northern part of the Netherlands...)

<wybo> Are some of you too ?

<jeffarch> mostly Germans and Britts in #esp

<wybo> (And I originally come from Friesland, also northern part, but sea-side)

<wybo> k

<jeffarch> handful of us in the US

<echarp> ok, I'm definitely too tired now

<wybo> k, maybe see u later then...

<echarp> I'm an old parisian

<echarp> cu around, good night guys

<wybo> Interesting!

<jeffarch> g'nite echarp

<echarp> don't hesitate to try leparlement.org, it's easy to post anything on it ;)

jeffarch has yet to visit Paris

<echarp> great place, definitely a must go

<wybo> Ocaml seems a bit a strange choice for such a tool I think, but opinions can vary on this ofcourse...

<urgen> do it j

<echarp> although there are too many parisians around

<jeffarch> hahaha

<wybo> (I only know it from unison, the memory-leaks)

<echarp> wybo: the central guy loves that language

<urgen> although the paris of today is probably different than the one I went to in 1983

<wybo> Paris is great I think

<jeffarch> I lived in southern Belgium for 2 years

<echarp> jeffarch: you speak french then?

<wybo> Never been there though (and been in India, Canada, Rome, etc...)

<echarp> india and rome, I will go there sometimes, must be nice

<wybo> Ohk...

<jeffarch> echarp: oui, un peut, mais j'ai oublier beaucoup

<echarp> normal avec le temps :)

<wybo> Je ne pas parle Fraincais et je ne comprends pas, is the only French I speak ;-)

<jeffarch> handy :)

<echarp> lol!

<wybo> Indeed ;)

<urgen> I just learned enough to survive, which I've forgotten now

<jeffarch> I must remember I live in the land of "freedom fries" now

<echarp> you do need to learn a few compliments for the ladies ;)

<jeffarch> but I can always say "I'm Canadian!" ;)

<echarp> lol lol

<wybo> But let's not let this topic wander off in french - vs - english - wars and the like...

<echarp> we don't mind usians walking around, they spend money too ;)

<echarp> in fact we love brits or us, it's just that it's a love/hate affair, classic, too many emotions

<jeffarch> true :) good thing you don't have WalMart, there'd be even moure of us there ;-P

<wybo> As far as I can see demexp tries to do a server and a separate client ?

<wybo> So not webbased ?

<echarp> wybo: yes, one server to bind them all

<echarp> they expect to develop the web end sometimes in the near future

<echarp> but I don't agree to their organisation, they want to generate a "flat" questions database

<echarp> and sometimes in the not so near future, to organise those polls using some kind of taxinomy

<jeffarch> ah

<echarp> I prefer polls' hierarchies, where the writer create his poll under whatever other poll he wants

<wybo> seems strange, really a strange setup to me...

<wybo> indeed

<jeffarch> yeah

<echarp> well, they are hitting the wall of complexity

<echarp> a flat database grows too much too fast

<wybo> indeed

<echarp> they are rethinking about it, but I'm not sure it will go anywhere, the mailing list is quiet about it currently

<wybo> If I would implement it, I would do it as a webservice, or something like that...

<wybo> Where others can create front-ends, or integrate it into existing websites...

<echarp> me, I want to do as a P2P system, where nodes exchange data with any mean available, mail is the easiest one

<echarp> signed mails

<wybo> P2P is nice, but slow I think...

<wybo> (and hard to implement)

<echarp> it can be a push or pull P2P I thing

<echarp> mail is easy ;)

<echarp> you just pull or push those mails or rss feeds

<wybo> Mail might be easy, but building upon it, is hard...

<echarp> you integrate it in the database as any other poll

<wybo> (unless ofcourse you want to keep it as mails that users have to hand-edit, which seems a bad idea to me...)

<echarp> nah, you don't modify or remove data, you can only add

<echarp> like a mailing list, with threaded conversations

<wybo> So voting means only adding ?

<echarp> yes

<echarp> you can delete *your* votes, well, cancel them with a counter vote :)

<wybo> Threads suck, I'm sorry to say, but LogiLogi's main aim is getting rid of the waste of time and duplication brought to you by the thread-system...

<wybo> Mail would not be bad perse, I never mean to say that

Signoff: urgen (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

<echarp> thread = hierarchy, no?

<wybo> If something is worth doing, its worth doing badly...

<echarp> :)

<wybo> Better do it badly first, but at least working than, perfect but never implemented...

<echarp> definitely agree on that!

<wybo> No threads are not hierarchies...

<echarp> perfection is not of our world

<echarp> well, in parlement threads==hierarchies

<jeffarch> wybo: I like that saying like that :)

<echarp> I don't know, what are threads to you then?

<wybo> A hierarchy can be interlinked, as is already the case with the alias system in LogiLogi

<wybo> (As I know them from forums and mailing-lists...)

Signoff: enki ("x")

<wybo> LogiLogi.org/SectioN/RooseVelt links to LogiLogi.org/RooseVelt if the first page is not available...

<echarp> true links destroy a hierarchy, it becomes a graph

<wybo> Doesn't need to, as you can see with LogiLogi

<echarp> I mean, true by opposition to unix symbolic links

<echarp> a hierarchy is like a book, links are like the web

<wybo> (Are not true links maybe, but I see threads as very inefficient, of course most ppl come to fora to waste time and boost ego, but for discussions, or communication centering on content or incremental argument, it's useless...)

<wybo> Because the same things are discussed over and over again, in ever new threads, and finding, integrating, or reacting to multiple threads is discouraged by this structure......

<echarp> well, it is just a mailing list

<echarp> it still requires FAQs, and most of all a good search engine

<echarp> it is not a wiki where you reorganise easily content

<wybo> A hierarchy can have links... (links between different parts of it, and in LogiLogi Algae also multiple hierarchies on the same data)

<echarp> links are definitely a good way to go from one node to another

<wybo> Yes but FAQ's don't invite you to discuss, as do search-engines...

<wybo> (those very limited)

<echarp> I agree, they are just more tools

<wybo> Wikis are flat, at least media-wiki, and all others I saw... No hierarchies, no links to concepts instead of page-names (at the same time unique page-ID)

<echarp> but I think mailing lists, forums, newsgroups and all such tools, are great for discussions

<wybo> They are not, because discussions every time have to start from bottom up...

<echarp> well, as any discussion :)

<echarp> you start with your memories and the notes you can find

<wybo> A thread is one-dimensional...

<echarp> disagree, a thread can more than one sub-thread

<echarp> disagree, a thread can have more than one sub-thread

<wybo> Any spoken discussion indeed, but the age of writing is already there for more than 2k years...

<echarp> and wikis do look like a graph, like the web, nodes being URIs

<echarp> writing throug letters is very much like mailing lists, no,

<echarp> ?

<wybo> A thread can have sub-threads, but as threads tend to develop, they do start over and over again, not as subtreads or extensions to existings...

<wybo> Yes but writing letters is still an act of speaking one after the other, reacting to what was said (imidiately) before by that one/few persons...

<echarp> that's a discussion

<echarp> and yes, many tend to repeat over and over the same things, it's a matter at looking up in the archives

<wybo> A serial discussion, is so yes, but a discussion in which you improve arguments, instead of stating them over and over again in different locations would be better in my view...

<echarp> many mailing list organise themselves, they link to previous mails of interest to a thread

<wybo> (In the humanities, and especially in science, they have developped some way for this already specific to those domains...)

<echarp> but yes, a wiki is more organised

<echarp> I'm interested, what kind of ways?

<wybo> It is true that looking in archives and linking to previous threads is possible, that's not my point, there's a huge difference between possible, and easy, let alone naturally easy...

<wybo> (I mean we have books and texts already for 1000's of years, so what does the web add, one could reason in the same way...)

<wybo> In science they do it by using a standard language, and combining many ideas/experiments into single theories. This is impossible for discussions or humanities, but it works there...

<echarp> I believe sciences work through publications

<wybo> In humanities there are paradigms, journals, articles building upon eachothers...

<echarp> those publications are very often answers to another one

<echarp> but they use links, bibliographies, which make them very much like wikis or the web

<wybo> But for discussions practically still the serial technique is used (with a few augmentations and especially a boost in speed of communication)...

<echarp> I agree, seriality is probably innate

<wybo> They are in some ways indeed, but not, and very not in others. Especially the use of peergroups for quality control.

<jeffarch> hm...I'm more interested in the links than the content, in some ways

<echarp> I'm puzzled about the idea of organising wikis, I'm curious about the possible end results

<wybo> Seriality is not innate in my view (at least not for discussions that don't have to settle on concrete outcomes)

<wybo> I think it definitely is what wiki's or whatever you call them need...

<echarp> I think it's innate in the way we communicate, only one mouth all that, plus it is a time/space continum we live in :)

<jeffarch> the traditional way to organize wikis is parent/child/peer relationships

<echarp> parent/child is a hierarchy, peers would be weak graphs (like the web), no?

<wybo> An other difference between Wikis and LogiLogi is that in LogiLogi it will become possible and normal to lock pages

<echarp> who has that power?

<wybo> I think that multiple possible hierarchies would be good (not in terms of implementation or physical location of course)

<jeffarch> can they be unlocked?

<wybo> Any author can lock his page

<wybo> No one can unlock, but everyone can copy

<jeffarch> fork?

<wybo> And start a page under the same name, but with a different unique ID

<jeffarch> gotcha

<wybo> The page that will be shown first will be decided by the rating it received

<wybo> Seen from the peergroup you choose to apply

<echarp> they will somehow occupy the same place?

<wybo> As your "view"

<wybo> They all list, and if too many, can be requested as a separate list...

<echarp> interesting

<wybo> But yes, they occupy the same name, just like a book on C++ can be replaced by another book on C++

<echarp> I'm thinking about having ordered threads, but if two elements are at the same place, I don't really know how to present them yet

<wybo> Another feature will be linking to concepts instead of to pages...

<echarp> I'm thinking about it, maybe simple tabs

<wybo> (Ity will not be threads)

<wybo> (In LogiLogi at least)

<echarp> no no, I'm just thinking about parlement

<wybo> k

<echarp> because there are links of course

<wybo> Indeed, and things center around concepts, not in threads

<echarp> threads center about something which is more akin to pages

<wybo> If one concept-links to RooseVelt, and there is only one page yet, it links to that one

<echarp> but what is a concept if not a page which is defined as a concept?

<echarp> how do you ensure a page is a concept and not two or three?

<wybo> Any page created has initially its own concept

<wybo> But pages can be added to a concept, creating a new concept for the initial page

<wybo> In that way the RooseVelt one-page place can give harbor to many pages on this person/entity...

<wybo> Of course it is also possible to link to pages, or to page-versions (or even to words), but concepts will be the standard way as I see it now...

Cleisthenis (n=Cleisthe@68.148.41.156) has joined channel #worlddemocracy

<wybo> By the way I very probably get subsidised by the Philosophy department of my university, so a friend of mine can be hired as a student-assistent, so that we can work on it together...

<Cleisthenis> anyone still active?

<wybo> I am...

<wybo> (giving my late time presentation...)

<echarp> wybo: that's great to be paid for your project!

<echarp> talking about logi logi

<Cleisthenis> is the log back on?

<wybo> (my friend will be payed, not me, I am lending money (very cheep, special arrangement for all students in the Netherlands) to do it)

<Cleisthenis> I'd hate to have missed the beginning

<wybo> I can still copy paste it

<wybo> Into the wiki at id.net